Information from John Paff on Municipal Public Meeting Minutes- TEPR
From: John Paff <paff@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:07:28 -0400
To: <paff@pobox.com>
Subject: Do meeting minutes need to contain a synopsis of public comments?
I sometimes receive questions that I think may be of general interest.
QUESTION:
Usually several people address my Township Council during the portion
of its meetings set aside for public comment. Yet, nothing of what
these people say is captured in the minutes. While I don't expect a
verbatim report of the comments, I would expect something to the
effect of "Mrs. Jones commented on the proposed raise of ..." or
"Mrs. Jones inquired about ....". The minutes do not even capture
the fact that Mrs. Jones spoke at the public session. Is this lawful?
ANSWER:
N.J.S.A. 10:4-14 require public bodies to keep "reasonably
comprehensible minutes" of its meetings. Unfortunately, there is no
published case law addressing the question of whether recording the
identities of public speakers and substance of what they said is
within the definition of "reasonably comprehensible."
The only New Jersey case that I know of where this question was
addressed is O'Shea v. West Milford Township Council, et al, (Passaic
County, Docket No. L-2229-04, Passero, A.J.S.C.). Copies of the
relevant case documents are available on-line at
http://ogtf.lpcnj.org/2009172pj/WestMilfordMinutes.pdf
The second page of Judge Passero's order requires the sued public
body to include within its meeting minutes "the person's name,
address and a summary of the comments made." On pages 15 and 16 of
the transcript (page 10 and 11 of the PDF file), Judge Passero
explains why this information is important. "A summarization [in the
minutes of what members of the public said is important] because it
alerts the public as to the issues framed, or, for example, a board
said, we had no notice of this. We had no knowledge of this. Here
are the minutes where somebody said, I want to point out this, this,
this. It also goes to notice. So make [the minutes] a little more
comprehensible and you say [sic] stay out of court."
So, according to Judge Passero's reasoning, including a summary of
what each member of the public said prevents the public body from
later claiming that it had no knowledge of the issue. For example,
if a member of the public, at the June 2, 2010 meeting, publicly
complains of stop sign obscured by vegetation, and on September 4,
2010, there is a fatal accident caused by a motorist not being able
see the obscured stop sign, it is important that the minutes of the
June 2, 2010 meeting reflect that the body was on notice of but
failed to correct the problem.
Judge Passero's ruling is an unpublished, trial court decision and is
not binding precedent. However, it might persuade other courts to
rule similarly. I suggest bringing the ruling to the attention of
your public body and ask them whether they will act in accordance
with Judge Passero's ruling even if they are not bound by it.
John Paff
Somerset, New Jersey
------ End of Forwarded Message
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:07:28 -0400
To: <paff@pobox.com>
Subject: Do meeting minutes need to contain a synopsis of public comments?
I sometimes receive questions that I think may be of general interest.
QUESTION:
Usually several people address my Township Council during the portion
of its meetings set aside for public comment. Yet, nothing of what
these people say is captured in the minutes. While I don't expect a
verbatim report of the comments, I would expect something to the
effect of "Mrs. Jones commented on the proposed raise of ..." or
"Mrs. Jones inquired about ....". The minutes do not even capture
the fact that Mrs. Jones spoke at the public session. Is this lawful?
ANSWER:
N.J.S.A. 10:4-14 require public bodies to keep "reasonably
comprehensible minutes" of its meetings. Unfortunately, there is no
published case law addressing the question of whether recording the
identities of public speakers and substance of what they said is
within the definition of "reasonably comprehensible."
The only New Jersey case that I know of where this question was
addressed is O'Shea v. West Milford Township Council, et al, (Passaic
County, Docket No. L-2229-04, Passero, A.J.S.C.). Copies of the
relevant case documents are available on-line at
http://ogtf.lpcnj.org/2009172pj/WestMilfordMinutes.pdf
The second page of Judge Passero's order requires the sued public
body to include within its meeting minutes "the person's name,
address and a summary of the comments made." On pages 15 and 16 of
the transcript (page 10 and 11 of the PDF file), Judge Passero
explains why this information is important. "A summarization [in the
minutes of what members of the public said is important] because it
alerts the public as to the issues framed, or, for example, a board
said, we had no notice of this. We had no knowledge of this. Here
are the minutes where somebody said, I want to point out this, this,
this. It also goes to notice. So make [the minutes] a little more
comprehensible and you say [sic] stay out of court."
So, according to Judge Passero's reasoning, including a summary of
what each member of the public said prevents the public body from
later claiming that it had no knowledge of the issue. For example,
if a member of the public, at the June 2, 2010 meeting, publicly
complains of stop sign obscured by vegetation, and on September 4,
2010, there is a fatal accident caused by a motorist not being able
see the obscured stop sign, it is important that the minutes of the
June 2, 2010 meeting reflect that the body was on notice of but
failed to correct the problem.
Judge Passero's ruling is an unpublished, trial court decision and is
not binding precedent. However, it might persuade other courts to
rule similarly. I suggest bringing the ruling to the attention of
your public body and ask them whether they will act in accordance
with Judge Passero's ruling even if they are not bound by it.
John Paff
Somerset, New Jersey
------ End of Forwarded Message
17 comments:
Googled John Paaf, agree with what he says and i would like him to sink his teeth into the Beverly City situation the mess in beverly city hall is so convoluted, there are people who like him and those who dont but he makes the municipalities take notice when he starts his investigation, it usually ends up with him winning and costs the city involved alot of time money, legal expense, and more pain for the taxpayers , let this city go bankrupt its already bankrupt politicaly...nothing else seems to be working in this town, its already bankrupt, let the money come out of the politicians pockets who caused this mess[probably not possible], he is not a lawyer himself but works with one and they usually win, if it destroys beverly city, so be it, but it would be such an ignoble end to a once great city, all because of the game playing in city hall by a bunch of crooked politicians and people who flaunt the law, beverly city is already on the brink of destruction and is only being used as a platform for cook and lc and their cohorts on council to promote their brand of control and manipulation....thank you for the info EPR
lc ,cook, jb,rr,newsome,skippy vs John Paaf and his lawyer sounds good to me
Does John Paaf take on an investigation on a contingency basis or do you have to put up a retainer to get him started, im sure he knows the techniques to not let the city get over on him, and after the revelations become apparent in this town im sure his lawyer and he would win, make the city ,sell the police cars[they are useless because of the people who drive them], then eliminate the police dept[like Jersey City], then the city would be forced to combine with another municipality for basic services after Paaf gets his pound of flesh out of them then maybe could get some peace in this town,,with Tony Pearces law suit combined with Paafs, goodbye Beverly and maybe, just maybe we could turn him onto GC, im sure he knows the right people to contact and go after him ...there you go, it would be two cases and two cash awards to him , let it rip, its the only way you can get any action in this town
John Paaf, if you read this blog, please help, the citizens of Beverly need your kind of courage, tenacity and desire for fair, equal and honest treatment...and to eliminate the corruption in city hall...Beverly Citizen
this has nothing to do with the post but did anyone hear about this?
Edgewater Park police looking for armed robber
By: Dave Levinsky
Burlington County Times
EDGEWATER PARK — A 77-year-old man was robbed at gunpoint Tuesday morning on East Franklin Avenue, police said.
According to investigators, the robbery occurred at around 10 a.m. while the victim was getting items out of his truck. Police said the robber approached the victim from behind, brandished a long barreled handgun and then demanded the victim’s wallet and money.
The victim complied and the robber left in an older model silver vehicle.
Police said the robber was described as a black male between 5-feet 9 and 5 feet 11 inches tall.
There were 12 robberies committed in Edgewater Park in 2008, the most recent year that statistics were available from the New Jersey State Police Uniform Crime Report. That total was the 8th most among Burlington County’s 40 towns.
Anyone with information about the robbery is asked to call Edgewater park police at (609) 877-4404.
BCT staff writer David Levinsky can be reached at (609) 871-8154 or at dlevinsky@phillyBurbs.com.
Why has King Five Finger Louie and his BlackBerry been sooooooo quiet today????? On his porch with head in hands, a guest at his side and a police officer in attendance whats it about Alfie? Could the end be near.
Hot news, Planning Board Members quit in mass. Why? Queen Cook, why are you screwing the experienced Planning Board members and appointing puppets in their place??? Is it being done so that you can get a good deal for the Affordable Housing Convent King (King Five Finger Louie's Benefactor) from North Jersey, so that he can build cheep affordable housing slums on the empty Beaunit Mills lot and the FMS/Masonic/Ruggeri's lots. My my Queen Cook do you think that this action will get you the nomination to run for Freeholder again? Is the goal for this development the following;
"Time to remove the heathenish criminals from the riverfront area at the end of Broad Street.
Build them new homes at the former site of Beaunit Mills, relocate them there.
Convert the Riverbank area / site of Dunk's Ferry from a dangerous & drug infested area to an profitable commercialized area.
Too long have the local thugs & criminals desecrated this area, & Beverly in general."
I know you are supposed to be an educated psychiatric doctor but you may want to submit to an examination, to find out why you are so determined to destroy our city. The fact that you are so close to the former mt holly gardens pharmaceutical salesman, King Five Finger Louie and haven't recognized his severe mental problems is also very scary.
It must be the water, because you Carol Moor and King Five Finger Louie are all alike. Now thats verrrrry scary!
King Five Finger Louie's and Council Member RR's Court House Records;
Unlawful Possession of weapon 6/10/95[offense date] Downgraded to Municipal court with charge of Creating Dangerous Condition[9/27/95],Disorderly person charge underage drinking6/10/95,Disorderly person charge6/12/95 all with same case number of 95001812, the Prosecutor was Paul Ferrell on case 95001812 at that time Luis Crespos address was 11 Bedford ct Easthampton NJ the woman at the ct house told me that the case was heard in Shamong and that I should go there to get more info.....another case against him was SC 2007001121 heard in small claims court in violation of township ordinance 2007-5, it was for failure to maintain the weeds in the rear of Beverly Commons, Then there was the charge dated 11/08/06 case number 2006-000951, Failed to apply for Bldg Permits,,, Then there was another complaint for an offense on 6/6/2007 and the complaint was filed on 6/11/2007 and the number of that complaint was 2007-001103 and im not sure what that complaint was about or where it was filed RR Arrest date was on 7/14/02 complaint number 0304470-I and it was for aggravated assault decreased to creating a dangerous condition and Im pretty sure the record on the mt holly computer said she had to be on 1 year probation her BD is 2/19/59 and Luis BD is 7/28/76 ill keep searching and keep up the good work as Winston Churchill said," Sometimes doing your best is not good enough. Sometimes you must do what is required."
Why has King Five Finger Louie and his BlackBerry been sooooooo quiet today????? Seen on his porch with head in hands (thats why no blackberry activity, you need your fingers), he had a guest at his side and a police officer in attendance, whats it about Alfie? Could the end of a dysfunctional dynasty be near. Let us pray so.
Hot news Beverly, Planning Board Members quit in mass.
Why?
Queen Cook, why are you screwing the experienced Planning Board members with your affordable housing plans and appointing puppet members in their place???
Is it being done so that you can get a good deal for the Affordable Housing Convent King (King Five Finger Louie's Benefactor) from North Jersey, so that he can build cheep affordable housing slums on the empty Beaunit Mills lot and/or the FMS/Masonic/Ruggeri's lots.
My my Queen Cook, do you think that this action will get you the nomination to run for Freeholder again? Is that your goal,or is the following statement your reason;
"Time to remove the heathenish criminals from the riverfront area at the end of Broad Street.
Build them new homes at the former site of Beaunit Mills, relocate them there.
Convert the Riverbank area / site of Dunk's Ferry from a dangerous & drug infested area to an profitable commercialized area.
Too long have the local thugs & criminals desecrated this area, & Beverly in general."
Queen Cook, I know you are supposed to be an educated psychiatric doctor, but you may need to submit to an examination yourself to find out why you are so determined to destroy our city.
The fact that you are so close to the former mt holly gardens pharmaceutical salesman, King Five Finger Louie and haven't recognized his severe mental problems, is very scary.
It must be the local water, because you Carol Moore and King Five Finger Louie, are all alike.
Now thats verrrrry scary!
King Five Finger Louie and Council Person RR's Court House Records;
Unlawful Possession of weapon 6/10/95[offense date] Downgraded to Municipal court with charge of Creating Dangerous Condition[9/27/95],Disorderly person charge underage drinking6/10/95,Disorderly person charge6/12/95 all with same case number of 95001812, the Prosecutor was Paul Ferrell on case 95001812 at that time Luis Crespos address was 11 Bedford ct Easthampton NJ the woman at the ct house told me that the case was heard in Shamong and that I should go there to get more info.....another case against him was SC 2007001121 heard in small claims court in violation of township ordinance 2007-5, it was for failure to maintain the weeds in the rear of Beverly Commons, Then there was the charge dated 11/08/06 case number 2006-000951, Failed to apply for Bldg Permits,,, Then there was another complaint for an offense on 6/6/2007 and the complaint was filed on 6/11/2007 and the number of that complaint was 2007-001103 and im not sure what that complaint was about or where it was filed
RR Arrest date was on 7/14/02 complaint number 0304470-I and it was for aggravated assault decreased to creating a dangerous condition and Im pretty sure the record on the mt holly computer said she had to be on 1 year probation her BD is 2/19/59 and Luis BD is 7/28/76.
Keep up the good work as Winston Churchill said," Sometimes doing your best is not good enough. Sometimes you must do what is required."
Im pretty sure the masonic meeting hall was going to be torn down by Craig Yates a few years ago and the point was brought up that it was an historical structure and had to be treated as such and therefore Mr Yates could not do his favorite thing and bring in the demolition crew and the Masonic Hall still stands as it has for many years and is seen in many old pictures of Beverly, What the hell is going on in this town? Farnum School had a tremendous history but they didnt preserve it , they just knocked it over...by the way the story goes that the wrecking ball kept bouncing off the structure because it was so well built...furthermore, the core samples of earth taken from the Beaunit site showed several areas of severe contamination, not only from the original factory but from the underhanded contaminated fill dirt that was brought in by the demolition company[nice honest guys] Winzinger i think, im pretty sure it wasnt Hargrove, hey queen cook what do you have against the beautiful open space next to the river, your Mansion is very close to the open field, what do you want to construct? some sort of Buffer Zone, you are so elitist you stink...talk to Carole Moore , she fought to have the Masonic Meeting Hall kept intact,[one of her more rational causes]...and I concur with the recommendation that you submit yourself for some deep psychoanalysis, which im sure you have to do periodically to maintain your accreditation...slip your paranoid buddy into the next room for the same
Just a clarification, queen cook is a Psychologist with a Phd, she is not a Psychiatrist which would mean that she had to go to medical school and get an MD or DO and then go for Psychiatric training..However , she does need a good Psychiatrist as well as her office partner
Again good for nothing Bob the bafoon Germer. I just waiting for you to actually do something with yourself besides complain. Oh and go to mount Holly and look up records from a lifetime ago. I guess because your are an asshole and always will be an asshole, you think people can't change. Yea Bob you are such a dimwit. Anyhow we have been busy telling people abot you running the blog and in fact you will not be worth our time until Paaf shows up. Anyhow use your time more wisely Bob you aren't digging yourself out of the hole with all your old news bullshit, but you are making it deeper!!! HAHAHAHAHAHH
Oh and BTW why do you let Don the dummy open up his mouth? But I guess to you guys he a smart one.
Good for you doc saw you hid your truck. Good boy for doing as you're told!
Where are all your defenders Germer? Why don't you give us a reliable source it's not you. You know one that's as accurate as when you told us how Daly and Pullion paid back EP TP for the phone use. Just like that Bob a solid reliable source.
Are these idiots for real? And these are the morons running Beverly? OMG this is like kindergarten trash talk only worse. The people of Beverly should be ashamed that these morons are running their town. What a joke! This crap should be published in the paper just so everyone can see how moronic and idiotic the people running Beverly are! You can't make this stuff up, it's hilarious! Thanks for the entertainment EP Reporter.
The more you talk lc the more you show that once a sociopath always a sociopath and the more you reveal how stupid you are and your sheeplings will follow you over the cliff...
Are these idiots for real? And these are the morons running The EP NJ Happenings? OMG this is like kindergarten trash talk only worse. The people of Beverly should be ashamed that these morons are running a blog in their town. What a joke! This crap should be published in the paper just so everyone can see how moronic and idiotic the people running this blog are! You can't make this stuff up, it's hilarious! Thanks for the entertainment EP Reporter. Your stupidity makes you so damn funny!
Yea Bob Germer you're the smart one right?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAAA
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